User talk:Solo

I actually answered on the discussion page. There are two sources for Savoy and Geneva which I will be using to expand those pages : Detraz, Gérard "Catalogue des sceaux médiévaux des Archives de la Haute-Savoie" 1998 Galbreath, Donald "Inventaire des sceaux vaudois" 1937

Comment

Please write centuries in numerals on the site, instead of letters. JSpuller (talk) 23:14, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

What is the source to the change of the arms of the house of Geneva? To my knowledge they changed their arms around 1280.

Les armes ancienne de la maison de Genève se blasonnent ainsi : D'argent à la bande d'azur accompagnée de deux lions du même.38,2,39,40. Blason utilisé à partir de Aymon Ier de Genève.

Les armes de la maison de Genève se blasonnent ainsi : D'or à quatre points équipolés d'azur. Armes adoptées depuis Amédée II de Genève vers 1280. Elles apparaissent dans des sceaux de 1288 et 1289 sur des actes du comte. APTE NON ARCTE (« Justement mais non étroitement. »).

JSpuller (talk) 13:29, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Great work on the 'Maison des Loives'! I've found some sources that looks interesting,

Guillaume Mitte, bordure seems to be Azure rather than Sable, compare it to the St. Anthony's Cross.

[[1]] [[2]]

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- Thanks, I've tried to keep everything consistent with your style (as best as I could, so you don't have too much to fix afterwards :p).

Those paintings were restored in 1701 but were already heavily damaged at the time and are almost unreadable now (I went there almost 20 years ago and it was hard to read most shields, even with your nose on it). I took some pictures but you can see from the couple ones available online that the paintings have been fading away since the two first studies.
Gustave Vallier made the first study and depict the border of both shields of those abbots as sable, so does Joseph Roman in the XIXth century. I think we'd better trust them on this rather than the watered down remains.
The traditionnal arms given to Guillaume Mitte by Allard and Rivoire de la Bâtie (authors of the two armorials of Dauphiné) are : "... à la bordure de sable, chargée de huit fleurs de lis d'or" (it's a well known family from Forez).

I have three shields to change still so it's not completely done yet : Sassenage is barry of eighteen pieces and there's no crown or claws of course (I just borrowed the modern version from the salle des croisades temporarily). St Geoirs is barry of six pieces rather than three fesses and Romestang is cotised of twelve pieces (rather than fives pieces) according to G.Vallier.

I'll give you the complete references for the three books (Vallier, Roman and Bricault) so you can add them to the sources if you want.
Also Roman's description is available online on Gallica : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k206212r/f794.image.r=roman%20peintures%20loives?rk=300430;4
That link also includes a depiction of the paintings in the palace of the archbishops in Embrun, another small corpus of paintings I could include in the future (see p.764, it's in french but you'll get the idea).

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I'm fine with that. :)

Another thing, about Clermont, no. 26. Two sources state that the arms is depicting two keys in a saltire:

Réunion des sociétés savantes des départements à la Sorbonne.... Section des beaux-arts Chauvat, François. Auteur du texte Auteur : Charvet, Léon (1830-1916). Auteur du texte http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k206212r/f796.image.r=roman%20peintures%20loives 26° Clermont. - De gueules á deux clefs d'argent en sautoir.

Les Peintures Murales des Loives de Montfalcon von Gustave Vallier https://www.forgottenbooks.com/de/books/LesPeinturesMuralesdesLoivesdeMontfalcon_10607192 XXVI. LE VICOMTE DE CLERMONT. Mêmes armes que celles du n° XI I . Néanmoins, quoique j'aie laissé le champ de gueules, je dé clare n’êt re pas certain de cet, qui paraît êt re différent sur cet é cusson,sans que l’on puisse déterminer d’une mani ère assurée quelle en est la nuance. En l’état, on dirait d’un gr is azuré (P) ; mais ce renseignement ne peut êt re un indice.

Perhaps you have another source?

- Yes I have. Those are Vallier and Roman's studies I was citing earlier. The first link is the same one I gave you, it's a review in which Joseph Roman's description of those paintings was published (multiple authors so Gallica only list the first ones alphabetically).
Like I said, Roman didn't change any of the readings from Vallier, as he didn't correct the obvious mistakes like number 9 which is very easy (100% sure I mean) to read as "or three bends azure". I'll look for my pictures (not sure where they are, those were bad ones, since I couldn't use any flash) if you don't believe me. I don't doubt Roman went there but he obviously didn't make a second reading of the shields.
A real complete study was published by G.Bricault. It's the one I used in my works on heraldry of Dauphiné at the university of Grenoble. The author is a specialist of the antonin order so it's a serious and well documented work (her husband also made better reconstitutions of the room and its paintings). It's not public domain though.

Here are the complete references for those three studies :
Gustave Vallier : "Les peintures murales des Loives de Montfalcon", Valence, 1891.
Joseph Roman : "Description de trois salles décorées d'armoiries XIVe-XVe siècles", Paris, 1894, Plon.
Gisèle Bricault : "Un décor pour l'histoire dauphinoise. Fresques et blasons de la maison des Loives en pays de Chambaran", Lyon, 1998, Bellier.

Totally unrelated : did you know that Gallica has a full version (in colour) of the Bellenville ?

Hey, just wanted to let you know that I've renamed the arms you uploaded under Wijnbergen 831 Jean de Broyes to Chateauvillain since this seems to be the arms of the entire branch not just one person and not just in one armorial. In case you start wondering...hope that is fine with you. ;) I also included it on the House of Broyes page. Cheerio. Finellach (talk)

Perfectly fine, makes sense to reuse those.Solo (talk) 13:54, 18 February 2018 (UTC)