User talk:Solo

Thx for identifying the arms in Toison d'Or I uploaded earlier. ;) BTW do you have any "transcript" of the armorial? I am sure I had one before but cannot find it anywhere if my life depended on it...the armorial is now fully digitized but can't decipher everything being written there since it's quite archaic way of writing. I am quite sure some of the names there are wrong or in plural, etc. Great job on Dering Roll btw...really awsome. ;D Finellach (talk) 17:11, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Sure, I thought it was worth a quick check, plus it's a family that's also represented in the Bergshammar (683 maybe iirc ? in the vassals of Austria section in any case, which isn't done yet).
I could take care of the full legend without problem and help with identifications if some needed corrections or improvements (also adding the numbering). I have a modernized transcript but unless we don't have the original material available online (Wijnbergen for ex I had to trust Clemmensen & E. de Boos transcripts & ordinaries, and from the few pictures I have I know it's gonna need a lot of minor corrections for both aspects the day it's avil. online) I really prefer doing the verbatim transcript from scratch anyway (full blazon like the Vermandois would be another story I admit). I was gonna suggest fixing that missing aspect for various already completed rolls like the Segar's, Zurich, etc ... I may aswell start with this one and help finishing it (I'm not sure what's its completion right now ?).--Solo (talk) 18:36, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Well both Toison d'Or or rather Great armorial of Europe and Bergshammar armorial are now fully digitized and available online so those two can be finished here since now we have original material. We also have unfinished Livro armorial but the problem with the latter is that it has some rather unique CoA's there with elements that would have to be drawn from scratch and Joakim said he will be on that one but he seems to have been busy lately or something so all those remain unfinished. I have been busy as well but I got more time recently so I decided to start looking into the Toison d'Or and Bergshammar eventually...and also fixing what can be fixed in Livro...some CoA's are rather unique there (Livro) though so only one person can do those I guess for them to be in line with the rest of the site. Finellach (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Working on one is working on both since there are whole segment that are copied over so it may be motivating to see some progress being made and gaps in the illustrations left to be filled. I've completed the first segment for Austria/Tyrol (12-186) which is also the same as Berghsammar 643-817. I'll leave what I have as identification or modernized spelling (a few items not form. id.) as comments when I edit all that in.--Solo (talk) 17:17, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Hey, can you elaborate on what you meant on the Mathefelon page? What would you put for their arms before the adoption of six escutcheons? I knew obviously about the arms with 7 pals but I did not know the year or anything. I find it kinda weird they would use the same arms as Mayenne, especially since they were still around...when they were gone it would be kinda normal if they adopted their arms or arms identical to theirs. Finellach (talk) 22:40, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

My guess is that they adopted an inverted variant of Mayenne (Or three or six esc. Gules, possibly simplifying the design depending on the support or period) when they married into the dynasty (Thibaud I, in the late 12th c.). Thibaud was both the brother in law and the tutor of younger Juhel III de Mayenne and yes, it's rather unlikely he would adopt the exact same arms at the time. They had many other possessions and it's really not wild to think they already had arms of their own before 1190 so the pals could just refer to any other of those lordships. The chevrons on the other hand are surely adopted after Thibaud III married Lucie de Laigle (for Beaumont, being the widow of Richard, viscount of Beaumont) and are attested alongside the escutcheons (act of 1273 has both seal designs).
Thibaud IV still used both designs but later settled on the escutcheons and ultimately abandonned the chevrons in the late 13th c. (last used in Herald's, Compiègne and Wijnbergen ? at least for the main line). The later armorials and the 14th c. funerary effigies (Thibaud V and his son) have the tinctures as gu/or but Vermandois (c. 1285, 6 esc.) and Ost de Flandre (1297, 3 esc.) are still or/gu so I'd guess they inverted the colours around 1300 or so (at a time when nobody could object anymore, harmless change to underline their ancestry).
So I'd put Or six escutcheons Gules as their primitive arms, with three esc. as the primitive variant (it could be the other way around in the chronology but it doesn't really change the point), plus Gules six esc. Or as the modern/definitive arms in the 14th c. - This is what I think makes the most sense in this case without any extrapolation : the primitive arms before 1300 (at least since 1273 although probably older) and the inversion in the 14th c.

Hmm...so I figured. Ok so what I was thinking is: renaming/moving this arms to Mathefelon Ancient and use that for their ancient variant. The one with three esc. we already have on the article among the personal arms so I am figuring that would do [edit: reason being - I think as you say this is a simplification of their arms, so for certain occasions they would revert from 6 pieces to 3 so since we already have it as a personal arms I think that would suffice IMO] ...simplicity is the best way to go. Ofc you can move it around yourself as well...you seem to know more about the family than I do tbh. ;) Finellach (talk) 12:20, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Sounds fine to me, I agree with your point about keeping it simple. It's sometimes confusing to decide between personnal arms and variants of the dynastic arms. Also closely related is, whether we prioritize the first occurence of individual arms (in case there are several I mean) or just don't add/correct if there's already one listed. We have a concrete example here with the three esc. variant that appears earlier on the seal of Alix (1273) but is already listed for Thibaud (1297). Solo (talk) 13:25, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Clermont...I see you did some updates there. I've restored the quartered arms attributed to Guy I since it exists so no reason why not include since I already made it some time ago...it also seems to be the arms of the Mello/Offemont branch in later period at least. Anyway what I wanted to ask you since you seem to have better sources for these french families is: would you say that the Offemont branch perhaps in general used this arms at first and then reverted to the base arms quartering it or none of those? And also I've come up on another arms some time ago which is the same arms (i.e. Clermont-Nesle) but on blue background and it is attributed to certain Raoul of the same Nesle branch...now could this be the arms of Raoul who was the younger brother of Simon II and progenitor of the Tartigny branch or some of his descendants of him since there were several of them named Raoul as well? Cheers. Finellach (talk) 14:38, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay no worry. That said I think you should still mention that those are attributed in the description since those couldnt reasonably have been his arms. I mean he lived in the 13th c. so it really is just not remotely possible. Also, the canton in the other quarters is for Montmorency-Breteuil, a cadet branch that doesn't exist at the time and has little to do with the Clermont family (the Montmorency married into the Muret family and inherited Beausault and Breteuil from them). So maybe ... Bouconvilliers-Montmorency ? That would exactly fit the arms of Gasce de Bouconvilliers, Maître d'Hôtel of Charles VI ? Maybe someone in the Nesle family married into the Bouconvilliers later and used those arms I don't know but that wouldn't be before at least the mid 15th c.
In any case, I think it's confusing for the reader when we include something we know is not right in the first place and is not from an iconographic testimony. That was the reason I removed those. For me it's only a wikipedia attribution with the wrong Breteuil family/association in the second quarters.
The later lords of Offémont & Mello used the plain arms on their seals but the colour is always Gules in the roll of arms they appear in : Bergshammar/Toison, Leblancq, Lyncenich, Cour Amoureuse (at least those four) so up to about 1450, Guy III & Guy IV (beyond that I have no idea). Those arms in azure are I think just (sadly as they would have been interesting) confounded by B.Timms in his translation (from gueules in fr. to azure in eng.) of the CPF because that's the only instance I've ever seen of those anywhere (I've seen these with Timms' artwork on the web, in a few family trees).--Solo (talk) 18:20, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Yes, that why I was asking...in fact when I first came upon that CoA I was skeptical but I kept running into that arms on several sites, some of which were semi-reliable so I decided to make it. But you're right, it is wrong for the period...too early for quartered arms at that time not to be said such complex quarters with cantons that have the arms with cantons (!!)...lol. I think I'll add the fact it was attributed in later periods...it seems it was indeed the case in later period so since I cannot really identify it positively I'll just put a note underneath how and why. One more question before I go...I would do some small correction to Bardonneche/Bardonnechia arms (some small line fixes) but would also add the golden clasps on the fretty as well as is described by you in the note....the question is I would also add the version with standalone fretty (example) having golden clasps/buckles as well...the question is: should I upload that one separately from this one so there is both one with and one without clasps? Maybe upload the one without under "ancient" and one with claps under current name? Also what about their cadets? Did they use the golden clasps on fretty as well? Cheers. Finellach (talk) 13:42, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Well the second quarter is indeed for Bouconvillers after verification (Armorial Orléans c. 1390-1400), Gasce de B. changed the canton of Bouconvillers (bendy of 8 Or and Gules, a canton Argent overall, 13th c. constables of Vexin) to Montmorency-Breteuil after marrying the grand-daughter of Erard de Montmorency who used those arms (in Armorial Vermandois, which became the arms of Montmorency-Beausault/Breteuil) at the time of Guy. Why those arms were reproduced on wikipedia and how they came to be attributed to Guy himself still eludes me.
This is actually a good question for Bardonnechia but you should add the clasps to all three arms as it is what's precisely known about those emblems. I see you already did both Bardonnêche and the cadets of Les Ambrois also used the nailed fretty indeed.
Sadly I don't know of any testimony of their arms in the middle ages (maybe in Piémont, but I couldn't find any at the time). Modern armorials only confirms that the chief was added later but that's hardly surprising. For the story, this is a very ancient dynasty so they probably adopted their arms at the same time as other families in that area (around 1200-1220 mostly) and they would have been a simple fretty of course.
There are five other later branches that I'll add if I can ever find what branch goes with which variant (I havent looked into it yet tbh, it may not be possible to tell).
Another good example of decorated fretty in the Alps is Villeneuve (a more extreme one even).--Solo (talk) 16:14, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

BTW I just noticed your post on my talk page about Maille arms alternative variant...sorry for the delay in answering...completely missed it... Anyway I decided to put it back and the reason why is not because of Wikipedia but because it in fact as you say appears in at least two armorials, plus it is also present as arms of Urbain de Maille (Marshal of France) in the armorial of the Order of the Holy Spirit by Hozier in 1633 of the. Also the same variant is present as an attributed arms of Folques de Maille in "Salles des Croisades"...so all in all it is an established alternative variant even if it was never actually used by them...although from everything I've seen there seems to be a strong indication this variant started appearing in late 16th and from the beginning of 17th century for Breze branch as well. Also the idea of family pages was to include as many arms as possible in one place, this is why (if you look at my pages) I write as much information undearneth every coat of arms. Just writing a number under the arms is lacking IMO, you should emphasize and elaborate...f.e. instead of writing "1183" you should write "Seal of 1183". Also attributed variants are welcome as well...as long as they are noted as such, etc, etc. If possible it is desirable to write from which person stems a certain branch and so on and on. You can f.e. go look at what I did with the Stewart branches and pages (or Capet which was done in cooperation with one other editor on the site some time ago). Cheers. Finellach (talk) 07:58, 10 February 2019 (UTC)