User talk:Solo

Thx for identifying the arms in Toison d'Or I uploaded earlier. ;) BTW do you have any "transcript" of the armorial? I am sure I had one before but cannot find it anywhere if my life depended on it...the armorial is now fully digitized but can't decipher everything being written there since it's quite archaic way of writing. I am quite sure some of the names there are wrong or in plural, etc. Great job on Dering Roll btw...really awsome. ;D Finellach (talk) 17:11, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Sure, I thought it was worth a quick check, plus it's a family that's also represented in the Bergshammar (683 maybe iirc ? in the vassals of Austria section in any case, which isn't done yet).
I could take care of the full legend without problem and help with identifications if some needed corrections or improvements (also adding the numbering). I have a modernized transcript but unless we don't have the original material available online (Wijnbergen for ex I had to trust Clemmensen & E. de Boos transcripts & ordinaries, and from the few pictures I have I know it's gonna need a lot of minor corrections for both aspects the day it's avil. online) I really prefer doing the verbatim transcript from scratch anyway (full blazon like the Vermandois would be another story I admit). I was gonna suggest fixing that missing aspect for various already completed rolls like the Segar's, Zurich, etc ... I may aswell start with this one and help finishing it (I'm not sure what's its completion right now ?).--Solo (talk) 18:36, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Well both Toison d'Or or rather Great armorial of Europe and Bergshammar armorial are now fully digitized and available online so those two can be finished here since now we have original material. We also have unfinished Livro armorial but the problem with the latter is that it has some rather unique CoA's there with elements that would have to be drawn from scratch and Joakim said he will be on that one but he seems to have been busy lately or something so all those remain unfinished. I have been busy as well but I got more time recently so I decided to start looking into the Toison d'Or and Bergshammar eventually...and also fixing what can be fixed in Livro...some CoA's are rather unique there (Livro) though so only one person can do those I guess for them to be in line with the rest of the site. Finellach (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Working on one is working on both since there are whole segment that are copied over so it may be motivating to see some progress being made and gaps in the illustrations left to be filled. I've completed the first segment for Austria/Tyrol (12-186) which is also the same as Berghsammar 643-817. I'll leave what I have as identification or modernized spelling (a few items not form. id.) as comments when I edit all that in.--Solo (talk) 17:17, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Hey, can you elaborate on what you meant on the Mathefelon page? What would you put for their arms before the adoption of six escutcheons? I knew obviously about the arms with 7 pals but I did not know the year or anything. I find it kinda weird they would use the same arms as Mayenne, especially since they were still around...when they were gone it would be kinda normal if they adopted their arms or arms identical to theirs. Finellach (talk) 22:40, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

My guess is that they adopted an inverted variant of Mayenne (Or three or six esc. Gules, possibly simplifying the design depending on the support or period) when they married into the dynasty (Thibaud I, in the late 12th c.). Thibaud was both the brother in law and the tutor of younger Juhel III de Mayenne and yes, it's rather unlikely he would adopt the exact same arms at the time. They had many other possessions and it's really not wild to think they already had arms of their own before 1190 so the pals could just refer to any other of those lordships. The chevrons on the other hand are surely adopted after Thibaud III married Lucie de Laigle (for Beaumont, being the widow of Richard, viscount of Beaumont) and are attested alongside the escutcheons (act of 1273 has both seal designs).
Thibaud IV still used both designs but later settled on the escutcheons and ultimately abandonned the chevrons in the late 13th c. (last used in Herald's, Compiègne and Wijnbergen ? at least for the main line). The later armorials and the 14th c. funerary effigies (Thibaud V and his son) have the tinctures as gu/or but Vermandois (c. 1285, 6 esc.) and Ost de Flandre (1297, 3 esc.) are still or/gu so I'd guess they inverted the colours around 1300 or so (at a time when nobody could object anymore, harmless change to underline their ancestry).
So I'd put Or six escutcheons Gules as their primitive arms, with three esc. as the primitive variant (it could be the other way around in the chronology but it doesn't really change the point), plus Gules six esc. Or as the modern/definitive arms in the 14th c. - This is what I think makes the most sense in this case without any extrapolation : the primitive arms before 1300 (at least since 1273 although probably older) and the inversion in the 14th c.

Hmm...so I figured. Ok so what I was thinking is: renaming/moving this arms to Mathefelon Ancient and use that for their ancient variant. The one with three esc. we already have on the article among the personal arms so I am figuring that would do [edit: reason being - I think as you say this is a simplification of their arms, so for certain occasions they would revert from 6 pieces to 3 so since we already have it as a personal arms I think that would suffice IMO] ...simplicity is the best way to go. Ofc you can move it around yourself as well...you seem to know more about the family than I do tbh. ;) Finellach (talk) 12:20, 16 January 2019 (UTC)