Dering Roll: Difference between revisions

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Dering_116_Robert de Cockfield.svg|116. Robert de Cockfield<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Hangleton and Aldrington<br>''robert de cokefeld''</span>
Dering_116_Robert de Cockfield.svg|116. Robert de Cockfield<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Hangleton and Aldrington<br>''robert de cokefeld''</span>
Blank_Azure.svg|117. Robert le Poer<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">[[:File:Heralds 268 Robert le Poer.svg|Unfinished]]<br>Lord of Lampham and Witham<br>''robert le poer''</span><!-- le Poer from Essex and Sussex = azure three boar's heads or (canting arms for Bere Boer->Poer->Power). cf Herald's Roll 268 which Brault and Clemmensen points as finished version of this entry. The version with Leopard's heads has already been noted as confounded by Clemmensen. But more importantly, such quartered arms would be way out of place here so not possible -->
Blank_Azure.svg|117. Robert le Poer<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">[[:File:Heralds 268 Robert le Poer.svg|Unfinished]]<br>Lord of Lampham and Witham<br>''robert le poer''</span><!-- le Poer from Essex and Sussex = azure three boar's heads or (canting arms for Bere Boer->Poer->Power). cf Herald's Roll 268 which Brault and Clemmensen points as finished version of this entry. The version with Leopard's heads has already been noted as confounded by Clemmensen. But more importantly, such quartered arms would be way out of place here so not possible -->
Dering_118_Blare.svg|118. William FitzLee<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">''willem fitzlel''</span><!-- Left unidentified by Brault as Wm Filiol (forms like fizlol or filel in other rolls so it matches well and the arms are close enough) while Papworth proposes Wm FitzLee (I disagree, an archaic form would be closer to FitzLeah) but neither truely id him (I wasnt clear enough : modernizing the spelling doesnt id him, it's merely cosmetic and if there's nothing else provided, purely speculative). I think this is more likely a match with Adam de Blare/Adam Blair who's using the same arms (distinctive enough) in the Herald's roll & variants in other rolls (noted & linked together by Clemmensen). Going further, my suggestion is that those individuals are : William de Blore who was lord of Blore in mid 13th c. & Hugh Adam de Blore who was lord of Blore and Grendon in the early 14th c. (or relatives in between). Given the holding, I would suggest a relation with the Audley (cognatic maybe, or a bastard) and propose William FitzLiulf as reading for that name. Of course not 100% sure otherwise I would not used the question mark in the roll<br>Interesting point but I  wouldn't say that the Adam de Blare used the same arms, he is given 'Sable crusily argent, six crescents, 3, 2, 1, or' in St. George's Roll and Charles' Roll  but 'Sable crusily and three crescents argent' in the Heralds' Roll, Charles Roll, 4th row, 2nd shield, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ogod7j6_Lxw/UF3JZu4TXaI/AAAAAAAADis/q3ZiHPzhJ6o/s1600/Charles-s-Roll.jpg<br>That's exactly what I wrote though (by variants I meant 6 instead of 3 which is a pretty common variation). My overall point was that FitzLee seems to be a shot in the dark without much to support it and the less likely of all three while Brault's Filiol id. could easily be confounded arms (from three cups to three crescents) and Clemmensen's Blare would be supported by the similarity in the arms -->
Dering_118_Blare.svg|118. William FitzLel<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">''willem fitzlel''</span><!-- Left unidentified by Brault as Wm Filiol (forms like fizlol or filel in other rolls so it matches well and the arms are close enough) while Papworth proposes Wm FitzLee (I disagree, an archaic form would be closer to FitzLeah) but neither truely id him (I wasnt clear enough : modernizing the spelling doesnt id him, it's merely cosmetic and if there's nothing else provided, purely speculative). I think this is more likely a match with Adam de Blare/Adam Blair who's using the same arms (distinctive enough) in the Herald's roll & variants in other rolls (noted & linked together by Clemmensen). Going further, my suggestion is that those individuals are : William de Blore who was lord of Blore in mid 13th c. & Hugh Adam de Blore who was lord of Blore and Grendon in the early 14th c. (or relatives in between). Given the holding, I would suggest a relation with the Audley (cognatic maybe, or a bastard) and propose William FitzLiulf as reading for that name. Of course not 100% sure otherwise I would not used the question mark in the roll<br>Interesting point but I  wouldn't say that the Adam de Blare used the same arms, he is given 'Sable crusily argent, six crescents, 3, 2, 1, or' in St. George's Roll and Charles' Roll  but 'Sable crusily and three crescents argent' in the Heralds' Roll, Charles Roll, 4th row, 2nd shield, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ogod7j6_Lxw/UF3JZu4TXaI/AAAAAAAADis/q3ZiHPzhJ6o/s1600/Charles-s-Roll.jpg<br>That's exactly what I wrote though (by variants I meant 6 instead of 3 which is a pretty common variation). My overall point was that FitzLee seems to be a shot in the dark without much to support it and the less likely of all three while Brault's Filiol id. could easily be confounded arms (from three cups to three crescents) and Clemmensen's Blare would be supported by the similarity in the arms<br>Well, in St G Roll and C Roll the crescents are '''or''' not argent, that is a completely different blazon. From 'Some fedual coats of arms and others illustrated with 2,000 zinco etchings' by Foster, Joseph, -  Fitz Lee or Fitz Lel, William (E. in. Roll) bore, sable, crusily and three crescents 2 and i argent. (F.) Dering Roll -->
Dering_119_William de Saint Leger.svg|119. William de Saint Leger<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">''willem seint leger''</span>
Dering_119_William de Saint Leger.svg|119. William de Saint Leger<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">''willem seint leger''</span>
Dering_120_John Pecche.svg|120. John Pecche<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Dunchurch, Wormleighton and Hampton<br>''jon peche''</span>
Dering_120_John Pecche.svg|120. John Pecche<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Dunchurch, Wormleighton and Hampton<br>''jon peche''</span>

Revision as of 03:33, 6 October 2018

The Dering Roll is named after one of its owners, Sir Edward Dering, Lieutenant of Dover Castle, who came into possession of the manuscript in the 17th century.
Made around 1279 for the Constable of Dover Castle, Stephen de Penchester, it is an early depiction of english baronage during the reign of King Edward I.
Many of the 324 individuals represented in the roll hold lands in either Kent (1-84) or Sussex (85+), while a continental program (289+) completes the work.
The manuscript was falsified by Dering who replaced the arms of Nicholas de Criel (item 61, restored here with his father's arms) with those of his own fictitious ancestor, Richard Fitz Dering.