Dering Roll: Difference between revisions

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De_Criol.svg|14. Bertram de Criel<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Eastwell and Folkestone<br>''bertram de criel''</span>
De_Criol.svg|14. Bertram de Criel<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Eastwell and Folkestone<br>''bertram de criel''</span>
Dering_15_Henry de Cobham.svg|15. Henry de Cobham<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Rundale<br>''henri de cobeham''</span>
Dering_15_Henry de Cobham.svg|15. Henry de Cobham<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Rundale<br>''henri de cobeham''</span>
Dering_16_Thomas de Aldham.svg|16. Thomas de Aldham<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Aldham and Ightham<br>''thomas de adeham''</span>
Dering_16_Thomas de Aldham.svg|16. Thomas de Aldham<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Aldham and Ightham<br>(†1275)<br>''thomas de adeham''</span>
Dering_17_William de Barming.svg|17. William de Barming<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Pimpe and Barming<br>''willem de berblinge''</span>
Dering_17_William de Barming.svg|17. William de Barming<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Pimpe and Barming<br>''willem de berblinge''</span>
Dering_18_Ralph de Saint Leger.svg|18. Ralph de Saint Leger<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Ulcombe<br>Justice of Kent (1273-78)<br>''rauf de sein leger''</span>
Dering_18_Ralph de Saint Leger.svg|18. Ralph de Saint Leger<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Ulcombe<br>Justice of Kent (1273-78)<br>''rauf de sein leger''</span>
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Dering_99_Waleran de Monceux.svg|99. Waleran de Monceux<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Compton and Herstmonceux<br>''walram de de muntceaus''</span>
Dering_99_Waleran de Monceux.svg|99. Waleran de Monceux<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Compton and Herstmonceux<br>''walram de de muntceaus''</span>
Dering_100_William de Etchingham.svg|100. William de Etchingham<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Etchingham and Padbury<br>''willem de echingham''</span>
Dering_100_William de Etchingham.svg|100. William de Etchingham<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Etchingham and Padbury<br>''willem de echingham''</span>
Dering_101_Richard le Waleys.svg|101. Richard le Waleys<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">''richard waleys''</span>
Dering_101_Richard le Waleys.svg|101. Richard le Waleys<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Glynde, Thanington and Buxted<br>''richard waleys''</span>
Dering 102 John de Percy.svg|102. John de Percy<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Folk and Up Cerne<br>''jon de perci''</span>
Dering 102 John de Percy.svg|102. John de Percy<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Folk and Up Cerne<br>''jon de perci''</span>
De_La_Warr.svg|103. Roger de la Ware<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Isfield, Brislington and Wickwar<br>''roger la ware''</span>
De_La_Warr.svg|103. Roger de la Ware<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Isfield, Brislington and Wickwar<br>''roger la ware''</span>
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Dering_105_William Heringaud.svg|105. William Heringaud<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Eynsford<br>''willem heringod''</span>
Dering_105_William Heringaud.svg|105. William Heringaud<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Eynsford<br>''willem heringod''</span>
Dering_106_Luke de Poynings.svg|106. Luke de Poynings<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Poynings, Twineham and Crawley<br>''lucas de poninge''</span>
Dering_106_Luke de Poynings.svg|106. Luke de Poynings<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Poynings, Twineham and Crawley<br>''lucas de poninge''</span>
Dering_107_William de Hastings.svg|107. William de Hastings<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">''willem de hastinge''</span>
Dering_107_William de Hastings.svg|107. William de Hastings<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Grench<br>''willem de hastinge''</span>
Dering_108_William de Hauterive.svg|108. William de Hauterive<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Hardham<br>''willem de autrive''</span>
Dering_108_William de Hauterive.svg|108. William de Hauterive<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Hardham<br>''willem de autrive''</span>
Dering_109_John de Monceaux.svg|109. John de Monceaux<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Quarme Monceaux<br>''jon de munceus''</span>
Dering_109_John de Monceaux.svg|109. John de Monceaux<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Quarme Monceaux<br>''jon de munceus''</span>
Dering_110_Hugh Sans Avoir.svg|110. Hugh Sans Avoir<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Spargrove, Bignor and Racton<br>''huge sanz aver''</span>
Dering_110_Hugh Sans Avoir.svg|110. Hugh Sans Avoir<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Spargrove, Bignor and Racton<br>''huge sanz aver''</span>
Dering_111_Richard de Pevensey.svg|111. Richard de Pevensey<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Chiselborough and Bockhampton<br>Sheriff of Sussex and Surrey (1285-86)<br>''ricard de pevenese''</span>
Dering_111_Richard de Pevensey.svg|111. Richard de Pevensey<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Bestenore<br>Sheriff of Sussex and Surrey (1285-86)<br>''ricard de pevenese''</span>
Dering_112_Nicholas de Malemains.svg|112. Nicholas de Malemains<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Aldwick<br>''nicole malemeyns''</span>
Dering_112_Nicholas de Malemains.svg|112. Nicholas de Malemains<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Aldwick<br>''nicole malemeyns''</span>
Dering_113_Thomas Peverel.svg|113. Thomas Peverel<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Barton and Blatchington<br>Conservator of the Peace<br>''thomas peverel''</span>
Dering_113_Thomas Peverel.svg|113. Thomas Peverel<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Barton and Blatchington<br>Conservator of the Peace<br>''thomas peverel''</span>
Blank_Azure.svg|114. William Graundyn<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">[[:File:Grandin William.svg|Unfinished]]<br>Lord of Wickham<br>''willem grandin''</span><!-- The arms of William Grandin in the roll show traces of gules in three sections of the top part of the shield, Brian Timms depicts the arms with a label of three points, http://www.bsswebsite.me.uk/History/Dering/dering-roll.html<br>Well I wasn't sure enough to suggest anything by myself but 1. I can absolutely confirm those traces of red; 2. I originally thought there were traces of six stars with the top dexter one having the pierced center still clearly visible and the bottom one appearing as consistent with 5 pointed (pierced center rather visible too, turned 20° right like many other instances & both very faded gold or argent). Could be three stars but they would be very small for such an arrangement compared to other instances in the roll. NB : Clemmensen lists Heralds/FitzWilliam 264 as 6 mullets pierced & label (yes that's different from Timms & Aspilogia, I can't tell if he's mistaken or they are) so that would be a very similar design -->
Blank_Azure.svg|114. William Graundyn<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">[[:File:Grandin William.svg|Unfinished]]<br>Lord of Wickham<br>''willem grandin''</span><!-- The arms of William Grandin in the roll show traces of gules in three sections of the top part of the shield, Brian Timms depicts the arms with a label of three points, http://www.bsswebsite.me.uk/History/Dering/dering-roll.html<br>Well I wasn't sure enough to suggest anything by myself but 1. I can absolutely confirm those traces of red; 2. I originally thought there were traces of six stars with the top dexter one having the pierced center still clearly visible and the bottom one appearing as consistent with 5 pointed (pierced center rather visible too, turned 20° right like many other instances & both very faded gold or argent). Could be three stars but they would be very small for such an arrangement compared to other instances in the roll. NB : Clemmensen lists Heralds/FitzWilliam 264 as 6 mullets pierced & label (yes that's different from Timms & Aspilogia, I can't tell if he's mistaken or they are) so that would be a very similar design -->
Dering_115_William Maufee.svg|115. William Maufee<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">''willem maufe''</span>
Dering_115_William Maufee.svg|115. William Maufee<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Chiddingly<br>''willem maufe''</span>
Dering_116_Robert de Cockfield.svg|116. Robert de Cockfield<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Hangleton and Aldrington<br>''robert de cokefeld''</span>
Dering_116_Robert de Cockfield.svg|116. Robert de Cockfield<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Hangleton and Aldrington<br>''robert de cokefeld''</span>
Blank_Azure.svg|117. Robert le Poer<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">[[:File:Heralds 268 Robert le Poer.svg|Unfinished]]<br>Lord of Lampham and Witham<br>''robert le poer''</span><!-- le Poer from Essex and Sussex = azure three boar's heads or (canting arms for Bere Boer->Poer->Power). cf Herald's Roll 268 which Brault and Clemmensen points as finished version of this entry. The version with Leopard's heads has already been noted as confounded by Clemmensen. But more importantly, such quartered arms would be way out of place here so not possible -->
Blank_Azure.svg|117. Robert le Poer<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">[[:File:Heralds 268 Robert le Poer.svg|Unfinished]]<br>Lord of Lampham and Witham<br>''robert le poer''</span><!-- le Poer from Essex and Sussex = azure three boar's heads or (canting arms for Bere Boer->Poer->Power). cf Herald's Roll 268 which Brault and Clemmensen points as finished version of this entry. The version with Leopard's heads has already been noted as confounded by Clemmensen. But more importantly, such quartered arms would be way out of place here so not possible -->
Dering_118_Blare.svg|118. William FitzLel<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">''willem fitzlel''</span><!-- Left unidentified by Brault as Wm Filiol (forms like fizlol or filel in other rolls so it matches well and the arms are close enough) while Papworth proposes Wm FitzLee (I disagree, an archaic form would be closer to FitzLeah) but neither truely id him (I wasnt clear enough : modernizing the spelling doesnt id him, it's merely cosmetic and if there's nothing else provided, purely speculative). I think this is more likely a match with Adam de Blare/Adam Blair who's using the same arms (distinctive enough) in the Herald's roll & variants in other rolls (noted & linked together by Clemmensen). Going further, my suggestion is that those individuals are : William de Blore who was lord of Blore in mid 13th c. & Hugh Adam de Blore who was lord of Blore and Grendon in the early 14th c. (or relatives in between). Given the holding, I would suggest a relation with the Audley (cognatic maybe, or a bastard) and propose William FitzLiulf as reading for that name. Of course not 100% sure otherwise I would not used the question mark in the roll<br>Interesting point but I  wouldn't say that the Adam de Blare used the same arms, he is given 'Sable crusily argent, six crescents, 3, 2, 1, or' in St. George's Roll and Charles' Roll  but 'Sable crusily and three crescents argent' in the Heralds' Roll, Charles Roll, 4th row, 2nd shield, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ogod7j6_Lxw/UF3JZu4TXaI/AAAAAAAADis/q3ZiHPzhJ6o/s1600/Charles-s-Roll.jpg<br>That's exactly what I wrote though (by variants I meant 6 instead of 3 which is a pretty common variation). My overall point was that FitzLee seems to be a shot in the dark without much to support it and the less likely of all three while Brault's Filiol id. could easily be confounded arms (from three cups to three crescents) and Clemmensen's Blare would be supported by the similarity in the arms<br>Well, in St G Roll and C Roll the crescents are '''or''' not argent, that is a completely different blazon. From 'Some fedual coats of arms and others illustrated with 2,000 zinco etchings' by Foster, Joseph, -  Fitz Lee or Fitz Lel, William (E. in. Roll) bore, sable, crusily and three crescents 2 and i argent. (F.) Dering Roll -->
Dering_118_Blare.svg|118. William FitzLel<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">''willem fitzlel''</span><!-- Left unidentified by Brault as Wm Filiol (forms like fizlol or filel in other rolls so it matches well and the arms are close enough) while Papworth proposes Wm FitzLee (I disagree, an archaic form would be closer to FitzLeah) but neither truely id him (I wasnt clear enough : modernizing the spelling doesnt id him, it's merely cosmetic and if there's nothing else provided, purely speculative). I think this is more likely a match with Adam de Blare/Adam Blair who's using the same arms (distinctive enough) in the Herald's roll & variants in other rolls (noted & linked together by Clemmensen). Going further, my suggestion is that those individuals are : William de Blore who was lord of Blore in mid 13th c. & Hugh Adam de Blore who was lord of Blore and Grendon in the early 14th c. (or relatives in between). Given the holding, I would suggest a relation with the Audley (cognatic maybe, or a bastard) and propose William FitzLiulf as reading for that name. Of course not 100% sure otherwise I would not used the question mark in the roll<br>Interesting point but I  wouldn't say that the Adam de Blare used the same arms, he is given 'Sable crusily argent, six crescents, 3, 2, 1, or' in St. George's Roll and Charles' Roll  but 'Sable crusily and three crescents argent' in the Heralds' Roll, Charles Roll, 4th row, 2nd shield, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ogod7j6_Lxw/UF3JZu4TXaI/AAAAAAAADis/q3ZiHPzhJ6o/s1600/Charles-s-Roll.jpg<br>That's exactly what I wrote though (by variants I meant 6 instead of 3 which is a pretty common variation). My overall point was that FitzLee seems to be a shot in the dark without much to support it and the less likely of all three while Brault's Filiol id. could easily be confounded arms (from three cups to three crescents) and Clemmensen's Blare would be supported by the similarity in the arms<br>Well, in St G Roll and C Roll the crescents are '''or''' not argent, that is a completely different blazon. From 'Some fedual coats of arms and others illustrated with 2,000 zinco etchings' by Foster, Joseph, -  Fitz Lee or Fitz Lel, William (E. in. Roll) bore, sable, crusily and three crescents 2 and i argent. (F.) Dering Roll -->
Dering_119_William de Saint Leger.svg|119. William de Saint Leger<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">''willem seint leger''</span>
Dering_119_William de Saint Leger.svg|119. William de Saint Leger<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Sowkerness, Muntfield and Hollingrove<br>''willem seint leger''</span>
Dering_120_John Pecche.svg|120. John Pecche<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Dunchurch, Wormleighton and Hampton<br>''jon peche''</span>
Dering_120_John Pecche.svg|120. John Pecche<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Dunchurch, Wormleighton and Hampton<br>''jon peche''</span>
Dering_121_Adam de Bavent.svg|121. Adam de Bavent<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Cocking, Hatcham and Shipborne<br>''adam de bavent''</span>
Dering_121_Adam de Bavent.svg|121. Adam de Bavent<br><span style="font-size:88%; line-height: 1.3em;">Lord of Cocking, Hatcham and Shipborne<br>''adam de bavent''</span>

Revision as of 10:49, 11 March 2019

The Dering Roll is named after one of its owners, Sir Edward Dering, Lieutenant of Dover Castle, who came into possession of the manuscript in the 17th century.
Made around 1279 for the Constable of Dover Castle, Stephen de Penchester, it is an early depiction of english baronage during the reign of King Edward I.
Many of the 324 individuals represented in the roll hold lands in either Kent (1-84) or Sussex (85+), while a continental program (289+) completes the work.
The manuscript was falsified by Dering who replaced the arms of Nicholas de Criel (item 61, restored here with his father's arms) with those of his own fictitious ancestor, Richard Fitz Dering.